its not fair that...

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Its much more fun to investigate events that make no sense

Post  UnityPrime on Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:00 am

Hey, sorry about the double post, but these are two screamingly different thoughts I've had regarding OOC conversations. Also, we don't get any rewards for the number of posts we put up here, so its not self serving. Yet.

One thing I've noticed about our dear head narrator is that he loves telling a story with what is NOT said, as well as what is. He often relies on our instinct, as players, to take what he says at face value as cannon without investigating his claims. Now by this, I don't mean "double-check that the sky is blue". That'd be silly, and not his style. However, I would say that if he says "100 ships took out your stuff", and it seems a little fishy...check your scanners. It could well be that your guys just reported 100 junk fighters because that is what they were supposed to see. See?

I think of a forum game as something akin to improv acting. In both cases, you are working with a bunch of other people in public in order to create a fun and consistent narrative. There is one cardinal rule in improv though; you never contradict something someone else has said. Doing so puts strain on the entire narrative, in a way.

I get around this personally by trying to find reasons for why things happen, if at first they make no sense. For instance, for people who pay way too much attention to what Prime has been up to, there have actually been a few cases where my actions, or the results of my battles, didn't make perfect sense. I could have just said "this was an error", but that would force myself and others and myself to start fact-checking whilst paying less attention to where things are going. Instead, I decided to investigate the game events trying to figure out how these things that didn't add up could have happened. In each case, there were in game reasons I had not considered, and I've actually avoided some major disasters this way.

In short, I personally suggest that you roll with in game events and bring up your suspicions as kick ass in character investigations. Bring up some officers on being cross-eyed or downright traitors! I think that would rock, personally.

I hope this helps, and I also hope this is not seen as getting down on anybody. I've been absolutely thrilled to get the chance to play with all of you in this unique space opera we are building together.
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  GeneralGarminFe on Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:32 am

UnityPrime wrote:Hey, sorry about the double post, but these are two screamingly different thoughts I've had regarding OOC conversations. Also, we don't get any rewards for the number of posts we put up here, so its not self serving. Yet.

One thing I've noticed about our dear head narrator is that he loves telling a story with what is NOT said, as well as what is. He often relies on our instinct, as players, to take what he says at face value as cannon without investigating his claims. Now by this, I don't mean "double-check that the sky is blue". That'd be silly, and not his style. However, I would say that if he says "100 ships took out your stuff", and it seems a little fishy...check your scanners. It could well be that your guys just reported 100 junk fighters because that is what they were supposed to see. See?

I think of a forum game as something akin to improv acting. In both cases, you are working with a bunch of other people in public in order to create a fun and consistent narrative. There is one cardinal rule in improv though; you never contradict something someone else has said. Doing so puts strain on the entire narrative, in a way.

I get around this personally by trying to find reasons for why things happen, if at first they make no sense. For instance, for people who pay way too much attention to what Prime has been up to, there have actually been a few cases where my actions, or the results of my battles, didn't make perfect sense. I could have just said "this was an error", but that would force myself and others and myself to start fact-checking whilst paying less attention to where things are going. Instead, I decided to investigate the game events trying to figure out how these things that didn't add up could have happened. In each case, there were in game reasons I had not considered, and I've actually avoided some major disasters this way.

In short, I personally suggest that you roll with in game events and bring up your suspicions as kick ass in character investigations. Bring up some officers on being cross-eyed or downright traitors! I think that would rock, personally.

I hope this helps, and I also hope this is not seen as getting down on anybody. I've been absolutely thrilled to get the chance to play with all of you in this unique space opera we are building together.

Good post there guy. Turn lemons into rainbows with an air of suspicion. Perhaps the enemy is within your ranks?
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  MaehlHoldings on Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:41 am

blackheartsecurity wrote:Like when the smallest factions in the game (The Indies) decided destiny when Druzi was a hot spot, it was ridiculous the kind of impact being in the right place at the wrong time can have.

At the same time I see Lions point. Seeing as the pirates have proven to be more loyal than any other faction (two weeks out and only now are ideas like being bought coming into the pirates mind because it turns out instead of their being no honor among thieves there is fanatical honor among them), and have tactical capabilities every other faction can only dream of (IE: The Stilletto Rush, which I guarantee in a "They show up, you die" if used by a player) it does feel like the Terrible Trio has been antagonized needlessly a little bit.

*rubs thumb and forefinger against each other*

In this paragraph was a rather long explanation of pirates, but I decided against sharing it. Instead I'll say this: In my experience, the aforementioned groups grossly misunderstand pirates as individuals and as a collective group. Furthermore, there was a gross underestimation of their capabilities. If there weren't, actions would have been different and things would have played out differently. "Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition." (if I got the quote right).

To bury the whole "100 stiletto" conversation - historically there is plenty of evidence showing how a sufficiently armed, mobile, guerrilla force can take down an unaware, much bigger force that it would have no chance against in face to face combat. In the DR world, the proof lies in Group 2 in just about everything they did. Heck, once with a single Uth I destroyed an entire army in game. In fact, the whole premise of the game system is that (virtually) nobody is invincible and anyone can roll a 1 or natural 10. Its an unreasonable expectation to presume that anything we do won't be subject to failure if the circumstances are right. Virtually everything has a counter. If you want to know how in this case these specific troop types succeeded, WAFO (wait and find out) if an answer hasn't been already provided that sufficiently satisfies your curiosity.

One final thought - there are always consequences to our actions. Merely because we are unable to rationalize the other person's perspective, doesn't mean their perspective is invalidated, wrong, or overblown. I might think that I did nothing to deserve Ar'Yay's ire, doesn't mean that Ar'Yay is wrong for going after me.

Just saying....

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  Lions of Earth on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:07 am

Ok I confes that giving not selling the pirates to the Quall was fucked up but it was ether that or get destroyed by the quail fleet and make an enemy out of them . I was like pirates or quail so I went with the better of the two. apparently I was fucked ether way and this is nothing compared to what you guys have done. And I don't see why people are getting so up tight about a bunch of pirates that got dicked over. Blackhart is right
Seeing as the pirates have proven to be more loyal than any other faction (two weeks out and only now are ideas like being bought coming
into the pirates mind because it turns out instead of their being no honor among thieves there is fanatical honor among them),

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  PresidentRagman on Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:10 pm

MaehlHoldings wrote: To bury the whole "100 stiletto" conversation - historically there is plenty of evidence showing how a sufficiently armed, mobile, guerrilla force can take down an unaware, much bigger force that it would have no chance against in face to face combat. In the DR world, the proof lies in Group 2 in just about everything they did. Heck, once with a single Uth I destroyed an entire army in game. In fact, the whole premise of the game system is that (virtually) nobody is invincible and anyone can roll a 1 or natural 10. Its an unreasonable expectation to presume that anything we do won't be subject to failure if the circumstances are right. Virtually everything has a counter. If you want to know how in this case these specific troop types succeeded, WAFO (wait and find out) if an answer hasn't been already provided that sufficiently satisfies your curiosity.


I have to agree with Maehl on the whole one person can radically flip a situation. First time i played DR, the Basterd Tunnel Rat i was playing "Grim" tokk out a whole hive of Krato in one round. He talked thier Anniliator guards into stepping into the hall, then threw a Zela nail bomb and 2 Bastard bombs into the room. Killed 300 Krato in thier house without the party taking any damage. Of course he was adventuring with Group 2. lol!
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  blackheartsecurity on Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Going back to the stilletto rush and what it means to the DR space campaign. It means for a million ghaz I can take down a fleet that would hammer the hell out of anything else.

As for the pirates, grossly underestimating capabilities yes. Loyalty however is a different matter, historically privateers/pirates have been absolutely willing to break ranks with any one besides their immediate crew if the price is right.

However the stilletto rush is still unsettling for another reason. It could for example eliminate maehls entire fighter and freighter fleet in one encounter. It gives me worry because it means everyone besides the Unity and IR (Who can regen ships with ridiculous quickness) should not go into any fleet battles, right now I would lose my entire fleet to any faction in the game if they specified they were using 100 stillettos. If i didn't it would still mean I can expect to lose the entirety of my what ever I send in, seeing as I cannot regen ships rapidly enough to counter it taking on space missions becomes a question of how many ships do I want to lose?

If the end result of this is minor factions/sub commanders with limited resources turtling up for fear of an autokill then its going to take away from some of the fun. I know I intend to purchase/build 100 stillettos and that will be the only force I deploy.

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  UnityPrime on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:16 am

I'd warn against that. I (personally) find it supremely unlikely that it was just 100 of those fighters which caused the aforementioned debacle. Instead it was probably a heady mix of treachery, hidden weapons, and who knows what else. I wish you luck in your purchase/rush, but don't be surprised if you don't get the effect you expected Wink.
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  blackheartsecurity on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:20 am

couldn't be treachery in blackhearts case at least as the people captured would have been the traitors. As for hidden weapons I would believe it, but because admin never described it no one knows exactly how the stillettos took down an IR mothership, 10 lights and 575 fighters why should I expect a different result? As a player if I post my fighters take down the ships the same way the pirates did, why wouldn't my ships do just that?

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  UnityPrime on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:27 am

*shrugs* One thing I've noticed about the game, is that the narrator only gives you what your character would know in the narration. The only way to get more info is to dig deeper/go through scans more closely, etc. Right now, the only standing report is that some crazy starships which look like stillettos showed up, and then disabled a bunch of ships.

Actually, the small amount of information our Admin gave is quite telling! We know nothing about what happened when we totally should. Sounds like it merits some in character investigation, if you ask me.
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  blackheartsecurity on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:33 am

My character watched it happen on my side, Arayay has the hive mind and her quall watched it happen from the the reality shows fleet. We both would totally see how it was done to our respective fleets.

So theoretically are we the only two that hold the power of a stilletto rush?

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  AdmiralLayneYr on Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:20 am

blackheartsecurity wrote:My character watched it happen on my side, Arayay has the hive mind and her quall watched it happen from the the reality shows fleet. We both would totally see how it was done to our respective fleets.

So theoretically are we the only two that hold the power of a stilletto rush?

foolish boys you are being set up i'll laugh. Twisted Evil

oop I love what the've done with the place. we even get our own therapy room.

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  GeneralGarminFe on Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:35 pm

A space battle covers a lot of space. I mean space is big. Really big. Example, our ability to view the night sky for incoming meteorites on Earth actually only covers about 1% of the potential threat. Yes, with billions of people on this earth, and many thousands of power telescopes, as well as satellites in orbit, we miss a lot of shit. Assume nothing, expect everything.
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  AdmiralLayneYr on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:38 pm

It's not fair that...

That there are people who feel if they don't Win the mission (get what they want as an outcome) then they say their action wasn't counted.

(Exaggerating for effect). If you submit ten pages of action and only one page gets used you say my action didn't count. Even if your main action was done.

The only time its fair to say my action wasn't counted is if your post was ignored and NOT because of a previous posts actions.

An example: Viggo wants to be a part of the Pirate Mconnel mission. He submits his action to make announcements . Then those announcemnets don't occur because a player who posted first did something that changed the missions.

Another example: during Don't drink a Dauhnb LiL says she wants to send an escort. But there is a blockade set up by Su Maehl. Obviously if she demands to be let through the blockade she would be denied. So her action doesn't count or get posted because of another player changing the field.

But she still gets a reward which is good. Because its obvious the Narrator wasn't trying to stop LiL it just doesn't make sense that her transforming fighters would start a fight with a neutral blockade. (If it was my blockade it would have made sense to attack)

In space 2 the field marshall nukes my toll road. My defenses In my opinion should have stopped it.
But that doesn't lead me to believe that my action of setting up defenses didn't count. It just wasn't effective enough.

If you write ten pages of mission action then don't be pissy at the Narrator when not all ten pages are counted. This isn't towards anyone in particular. But since this thread is here I wanted to speak my mind.

Maybe the Narrator should go back to limiting us to 2 paragraph of actual actions instead of the plans within plans within plans people post.

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  GeneralGarminFe on Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:18 pm

I agree with the admiral. We all can't get our way. Impossible to accomplish and still tell a cohesive story that makes any amount of sense. We should be glad that the rewards don't include a vast amount of punishments as well. Aside from damaged or destroyed ships, there have only been 2 punishments (to moral) and they made perfect sense from a meta-gaming point-of-view. (I'm excluding those times the GM took the Unities own things and ran rampant with them, aka Purifier & Reclamation Citadel. For him those are actually rewards. :P)

I do remember the first time in this forum where I had my actions completely omitted. I mean completely omitted, not even a blurb. It was the Hunt for the Forgotten mission. I felt terrible and had to ask the GM if something had gone wrong. Turned out it became the lead up for another mission. So I can sympathize with the feeling, but I can no longer sympathize with the negative responses people give.

Some of my other actions have also been marginalized, but I realize in many cases its for the best to get the narrative to focus on more important actions, or to focus on characters who need more lime light. Besides, I think it actually sounds more impressive that dudes from accounting kicked the ass out of some thugs then saying a group of well trained soldiers fought with some assassins. May not ping greater on the epic scale, but it does impress me more.
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  GeneralGarminFe on Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:47 am

Its not fair that...

We have all this space to do out-of-character conversations and yet people just aren't satisfied. Ever since this space became available, people have just been putting "OOC" in just about every conversation I read. I'm sorry, but I liked it a lot better when people just roll played everything.

Hell, I've seen forum threads meant for in-character conversations devolve into OOC conversations with absolutely no in-character content! To top it off, most of what is said could easily have been done in-character? Just OOC this and OOC that in post after post. As if things needed that much explanation.

Could we just leave the out-of-character stuff in the game lobby? Please?
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  blackheartsecurity on Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:04 am

LOL a lot of the mods just got new players, we need to show them the ropes and the easiest way is to tack some OoC stuff on at the end.

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  GeneralGarminFe on Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:31 am

But we have a whole forum dedicated to answering questions.
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Re: its not fair that...

Post  blackheartsecurity on Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:32 pm

Wait we do? Seriously though, a lot of the OoC on my side was letting the new guy know whats up, its bulky and cumbersome to post it in questions and force them to reference back and forth.

Though looking at the hot TRILAT thread those aren't new players so I dunno its in style to OoC.

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  LeftenantRyuk on Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:16 pm

I think some of the issue is it gets hard to determine whether a thread is encrypted or not. That caused some confusion in the one thread I was in. The other was the actions going to a point where it was beyond role playing. The first case I wish to avoid, the second, I don't see much harm in it because that thread was over, it spawned its mission.

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  TheSectorGeneralDeer on Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:11 pm

It's not fair that Henry, Amanda and me had to go to Amandas little sisters cincenera (I think I spelled it wrong) instead of getting to get in on Origins and the Dark Refuge games there.

My friend Josh got to play with the DR team and he wouldn't stop telling us how great it was on conference call just to rub it in.








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Re: its not fair that...

Post  OrleosSacrenine on Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:37 pm

TheSectorGeneralDeer wrote:It's not fair that Henry, Amanda and me had to go to Amandas little sisters cincenera (I think I spelled it wrong) instead of getting to get in on Origins and the Dark Refuge games there.

My friend Josh got to play with the DR team and he wouldn't stop telling us how great it was on conference call just to rub it in.








Such is the price of having friends lol, but I feel your pain. I remember when I-CON rolled around and I had my heart dead set on it and then as it turned out I had surgery scheduled for that weekend, and the year after that I had to go to a family function that got canceled when we got there. It made me sad Sad

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  blackheartsecurity on Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:34 am

OrleosSacrenine wrote:
TheSectorGeneralDeer wrote:It's not fair that Henry, Amanda and me had to go to Amandas little sisters cincenera (I think I spelled it wrong) instead of getting to get in on Origins and the Dark Refuge games there.

My friend Josh got to play with the DR team and he wouldn't stop telling us how great it was on conference call just to rub it in.


Such is the price of having friends lol, but I feel your pain. I remember when I-CON rolled around and I had my heart dead set on it and then as it turned out I had surgery scheduled for that weekend, and the year after that I had to go to a family function that got canceled when we got there. It made me sad Sad

Yeah I feel both your pains, I'm either out of state or off having "fun" (In a not really sort of way) at other locations.

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  TemporalEmpire on Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:09 pm

I think its not fair that...

Blackheart is giving Maehl holdings a hard time in character and out of character when Maehl earned the right to have a banking guild rep over the course of Space 2 and 3. These accusations of overcharging are bogus.

Along the same lines it is absurd and makes no sense that Blackheart can suddenly just set up as a "guild rep" just because they are friends with admin outside of game.

Before anyone jumps on me for saying this. There are requests going back to week 1 from Maehl about using the AOI banking guild benefits ( earned by Soren and the great players of AOI, a subfaction of Maehls during Space 2, I would know they were part of my faction). But there is Nothing in game where Blackheart requests or negotiates this right.

Blackheart just announces it. And when I asked Admin about it there are no PMs or anything else to support it.

No cool, part foul, and more evidence of the same very legitimate accusation Maehl made in the Watercooler chat.

It makes no sense that a corp owned by a Vampyr who has no ties to the Guild would get that when other players had to earn it over the course of two online game sessions. I don't understand why a bidding war is even necessary the reason Maehl took over was to speed transactions and some people are acting like he's taking advantage of them.

And its the same people who sold out NPCs and then were confused when those same NPCs got the chance to go after them. And complain that they can't buy gear from the same people they just sold out.

At the end 2 complaints 1 about the new Blackheart subsidiary, and 2 about all the people hunted by pirates complaining when they screwed over the pirates. Your actions brought it on in character.

That reminds me of a third complaint. Metagamed responses in mission posts. I was taken aback when I read the Fire Sea post. TNI sent their leader to a weapons deal, instead of doing it in forum like he should have he did it in a Mission post. This exposes his character to Die just like Yantuk and Kalshek did in Border Wars, and Lt.Basil in space 2. Instead of Twain just getting taken by the 5 Sanguine Lords which would have happened to ANYONE elses character this whole mission starts.

I post my initial mission post to do a snatch and end what could be a bad bad situation.

Then twain somehow rigs the "entire island" to blow just in case someone grabs him? And then he leaps in the lava to die? That makes no sense when in character he's already negotiated to be handed over to Zaodonai Celyse. So he metagamed it to stop my action. Not the Kasanthians who agreed to hand him over to Celyse, my action alone.

Not the first metagaming out of TNI , but the most frustating and blatant from my point of view. (Turn su Maehl into a girl in the IR computer systems, TNI never has the right to accuse another player of Not acting Adult)

And anti Leyas foam doesn't work on Time Shredder its all annihilation Leyas so that's more metagaming. Unless Twain wanted to spray the peace talkers who he had already negotiated with with his foam he rigged it to blow because he seems to think it'll stop a Dauhnb snatcher. The Admin will post the mission how he posts it. But when I saw that I felt it was very unfair.

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  blackheartsecurity on Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:35 pm

TemporalEmpire wrote:I think its not fair that...

Blackheart is giving Maehl holdings a hard time in character and out of character when Maehl earned the right to have a banking guild rep over the course of Space 2 and 3. These accusations of overcharging are bogus.

Along the same lines it is absurd and makes no sense that Blackheart can suddenly just set up as a "guild rep" just because they are friends with admin outside of game.

Before anyone jumps on me for saying this. There are requests going back to week 1 from Maehl about using the AOI banking guild benefits ( earned by Soren and the great players of AOI, a subfaction of Maehls during Space 2, I would know they were part of my faction). But there is Nothing in game where Blackheart requests or negotiates this right.

Blackheart just announces it. And when I asked Admin about it there are no PMs or anything else to support it.

No cool, part foul, and more evidence of the same very legitimate accusation Maehl made in the Watercooler chat.

It makes no sense that a corp owned by a Vampyr who has no ties to the Guild would get that when other players had to earn it over the course of two online game sessions. I don't understand why a bidding war is even necessary the reason Maehl took over was to speed transactions and some people are acting like he's taking advantage of them.

And its the same people who sold out NPCs and then were confused when those same NPCs got the chance to go after them. And complain that they can't buy gear from the same people they just sold out.

At the end 2 complaints 1 about the new Blackheart subsidiary, and 2 about all the people hunted by pirates complaining when they screwed over the pirates. Your actions brought it on in character.

That reminds me of a third complaint. Metagamed responses in mission posts. I was taken aback when I read the Fire Sea post. TNI sent their leader to a weapons deal, instead of doing it in forum like he should have he did it in a Mission post. This exposes his character to Die just like Yantuk and Kalshek did in Border Wars, and Lt.Basil in space 2. Instead of Twain just getting taken by the 5 Sanguine Lords which would have happened to ANYONE elses character this whole mission starts.

I post my initial mission post to do a snatch and end what could be a bad bad situation.

Then twain somehow rigs the "entire island" to blow just in case someone grabs him? And then he leaps in the lava to die? That makes no sense when in character he's already negotiated to be handed over to Zaodonai Celyse. So he metagamed it to stop my action. Not the Kasanthians who agreed to hand him over to Celyse, my action alone.

Not the first metagaming out of TNI , but the most frustating and blatant from my point of view. (Turn su Maehl into a girl in the IR computer systems, TNI never has the right to accuse another player of Not acting Adult)

And anti Leyas foam doesn't work on Time Shredder its all annihilation Leyas so that's more metagaming. Unless Twain wanted to spray the peace talkers who he had already negotiated with with his foam he rigged it to blow because he seems to think it'll stop a Dauhnb snatcher. The Admin will post the mission how he posts it. But when I saw that I felt it was very unfair.

Actually my character has a long history of dealing with the banking guild (Though I haven't put any of my backstory up so I can completely understand why it would seem bogus), however, since you feel these accusations are unfair I will just use said connection to supply myself and not counter bid.

As for the pirates, my complaint is they aren't acting like pirates. I guarantee I piss off one of the pirate warlords in somalia and offer to buy off the rest, if the price is right they will break ranks. Hell even if i piss off one and don't bribe the rest that one has to have enemies or competition whom I could work with to undermine or at least maintain freedom of movement...in an empire torn asunder by civil war.

I think the anti-leyas foam was intended more for the five sanguine lords on the island. I would imagine it would have ridiculously bad effects on them (I'm hoping if they get exposed they need to kill to stay alive and basically go on a PCP rage across krypos or the galaxy at large)

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Re: its not fair that...

Post  LeftenantRyuk on Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:00 pm

TemporalEmpire wrote:
Then twain somehow rigs the "entire island" to blow just in case someone grabs him? And then he leaps in the lava to die? That makes no sense when in character he's already negotiated to be handed over to Zaodonai Celyse. So he metagamed it to stop my action. Not the Kasanthians who agreed to hand him over to Celyse, my action alone.

To be fair, Twain started doing this when there was discussion with the lords when we were rp ing the situation out.

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Re: its not fair that...

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