Discussion: Meta-gaming

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Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  GeneralGarminFe on Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:32 am

Read below before posting to this thread.

This thread is not to point out when others are meta-gaming. If you must point out an instance of this, look to yourself first because we all do it at some level. This thread is not to point fingers, but to discuss the subject in general so that we can all be watchful of it within ourselves, and perhaps understand the rare instances where meta-gaming is good.


Last edited by GeneralGarminFe on Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  GeneralGarminFe on Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:39 am

Meta-gaming can be hard.

It happens often at some level. Let's take missions for example. Sometimes reading another players actions changes what we do, even if we don't mean it to. Example:

If I usually use a lot of layes based attacks in missions, some could notice this in a particular mission and be "reminded" that I do this a lot. Then be reminded of those times he could have just used zela and negated all of my attacks. Lets then say another person reads a bit about zela being used and is "reminded" that they should mix in other non-layes based attacks.

On some level each reading reminds us of things we forgot we could do, and perhaps moves us to change our tactics in ways that are actually uncharacteristic. Now at no level is this unreasonable, but it is still, on some level, meta-gaming. The example is just designed to show how it creeps in on the subconscious level.
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  TerraNovaIndustries on Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:45 am

GarminFe is right, everyone winds up meta gaming as some point, even if they don't mean to. It is one of the inherent dangers of posting over the course of a week in an open forum. While the email-in Space Campaigns were a massive pain in the ass for the Admin at least all player actions were a mystery to opposing factions. In Space 3's open forums everyone is guilty of meta gaming at some level, including me. By reading the forums we all know what each other is up to (for the most part), so keeping that knowledge out of character actions/responses/communications is hard on the conscious level and is nigh impossible on the subconscious level.

The way I try to regulate myself is by rereading my posts several times and questioning my actions, strategies and the motivations behind both. Am I reacting to another players' post? Does this action actually belong in this mission thread? Is this really what my character would do? I am definitely not saying that I make those checks each and every post, but I generally try run my characters that way.

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  MichaelHerbertGilmour on Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:59 am

I've decided to simply not look at posts within 'This Week's Missions' other than the admin post, unless I actually post first. Should make things easier/better.
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  Ar'yayhivequeen on Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:48 pm

Very good points, yes, it is quite difficult not to at least be influenced by information in the mission threads. I mean it is alright when you are doing the counter attack action (i.e the second post if you are the first poster according to Admin) but otherwise it just is awkward. It makes it even harder if you look upon the mission thread and see others doing it subtly also, you look at it and that probably influences players even more.
I agree with Garmen Fe here, until I make my own post I shall not look at any posts in the mission thread to remove all influences and make it harder for me to accidentally metagame bounce

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  blackheartsecurity on Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:01 pm

I think part of the problem is figuring out what your character would know versus what you are reading. For example in the dahumb mission from week 6 we would all know that Maehl had a fleet there (Which is why it sucks he posted near the end because that is something that would need to be answered in everyone elses mission posts, whether they obey, push through, sneak around, engage, or other) but would the EEF know Garmin Fe was on the ground? That point could be argued either way.

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  ViggoTheKasanthian on Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:34 pm

I suppose the best way to be aware of not meta-gaming is to only read about the mission, and not scroll into other players actions, at least not until that forum is locked.

In another case, it would be wise to only read posts that pertain to your character or faction.
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  blackheartsecurity on Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:59 pm

I dunno a lot of times you need to read everyones posts. For example in fight against the forgotten on krypos if you just read the missions you may just send in troops only to take massive casualties because they ran headlong into an EEF artillery barrage (Artillery barrages are something highly highly noticeable).

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  TerraNovaIndustries on Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:39 pm

Maybe there needs to be a hierarchy of posts? Like major fleet/group/planetary actions post in the first 48 hours, regular mission actions in the next 24 and then support/backup in the final 24? That way it's possible to actively avoid reading posts that might lead to meta gaming and just might help the Admin sort out everything making his life easier and hopefully our mission results posted sooner ( bounce ).
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  GeneralGarminFe on Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

I would prefer not to increase the complexity of mission assignments for the sake of possibly minimizing meta-gaming. Remember, it is often a problem, but I also said that not all meta-gaming is actually bad.

Example: Your playing a session with other players for the first time. Now the point of gaming with others is to create a story that defines why it is important to focus on this small band of characters and not upon others within the grand universe. Stories ought to be worth being told. However, sometimes you end up making a character who's motivations have little or nothing to do with the goals of the other PCs. Sometimes you need to modify your view of the character or have them do something out of the original intentions in order to fulfill the goal of forming a band. I mean its not worth it to the gaming group to have a character hang around who has no care for being there, or to have a character separate from the group having their own adventure away from the party. It loses the cohesiveness that stories often need.

Not all meta-gaming is bad or good. You have to keep the underlying reason for playing the game in your head. Particularly the best reason of all, to have fun and keep it fun for everyone else involved. Maybe when you write your missions you should ask, "Is this fair to all the players who posted before me?"
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  MaehlHoldings on Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:22 am

blackheartsecurity wrote:I think part of the problem is figuring out what your character would know versus what you are reading. For example in the dahumb mission from week 6 we would all know that Maehl had a fleet there (Which is why it sucks he posted near the end because that is something that would need to be answered in everyone elses mission posts, whether they obey, push through, sneak around, engage, or other) but would the EEF know Garmin Fe was on the ground? That point could be argued either way.

While i agree my actions were late and thus advantageous, at the same time its timing was DIRECTLY correlated to roleplaying occurring between myself and the EEF players. We were roleplaying it down to the wire, so really I had no choice but to wait until there was some semblance of finality between our characters before posting something regarding my actions. (I don't envy how admin determines whether or not people will run from my fleet.) However, the question also remains: why didn't anyone take into account that there might be a defense force in place within the Free Systems to prevent unauthorized access?? Several players did during "land grab." Furthermore, am I at fault for requiring additional time to see how the dust settled between the EEF and I to see how "harsh" a blockade I would need in the Free Systems (as it directly correlated to the the pirate army of the McConnels)?

With regards to meta-gaming - I'll juxtapose two different responses to this week's actions to offer differing perspectives:
1) EEF rescue mission - where I was one of the last to post and had a comprehensive answer to a variety of, what appeared to me, obvious scenarios. While I was comprehensive, I neither presumed I would be able to do any of my actions, nor did I try to come up with a "win no matter what" scenario (i.e. doing something to track the cloaked EEF ships, which was a supremely fair action on their part). To what extent is that considered meta-gaming, in any one's opinion? Does having the home-court advantage (i.e. occurring in the free systems, where I have hundreds upon hundreds of ships acting as a defense force since Space wars 2) alter anyone's opinion of the matter?

2) My assassination: Since I'm the one about to die, is it meta-gaming to attempt, in my opinion, to set up a situation where I control when I would be attacked, (i.e. during tea time, right after I return from the plane of awareness)? Does setting up the scenario allow for unfair advantages? Does the fact that I leave the situation open enough so that admin can choose to allow other individuals' actions to occur, meta-gaming? I knew what Ar'Yay's plans were before I posted, as well as Twain's. Does my post inherently counter-act those by creating a situation where my allies would have been able to assist? Or should I have kept myself in front of Zaodonai Celyse, like I might otherwise have been considering my actual roleplaying, where I would have been infinitely less likely to succumb to my adversary's plans as I was under the watchful eye of an entire Uth army in Azreal's castle? Or should I have done what everyone else did (whenever confronted with death), which is have a clone(s) of myself be targeted instead. I'll be honest, I set up the scenario as I did because I thought it would be fairer to the player (Ar'Yay) to allow a true kill situation as opposed to cheating them out of a hard-earned action sequence.

So is all meta-gaming bad?? On both occasions above, I knew what would happen before I posted. Do either of my posts allow for unfair advantages I may not have had otherwise? In the former, I have home field advantage, LITERALLY. Is giving admin a roadmap to how, if allowed the opportunity, I may react be considered meta-gaming to unfair advantage? As an example: depending on your ships, you may very well have made it through my blockade (i.e. EEF cloaked ships, which I made no attempt to defend against). Furthermore, I have a large amount of space to cover... I may not even have caught up to anyone. It doesn't mean the Free systems wouldn't be covering ground and acting accordingly if they could. In the latter scenario, I was much worse in my "meta-gaming" action to actually allow almost EVERYONE's post to be meaningful, as opposed to holing up in the Plane of Awareness, where I was surrounded by UthVelor, Zaodonai Celyse's UthVelor no less, at all times. I couldn't imagine a scenario where my adversary would have stood a chance, which I considered even more unfair than the fact that my action could therefore be considered "meta-gaming."

So the question, I pose to everyone, is that to what extent are your actions attempting to garner unfair advantages over others? Are you pulling information that you would otherwise not have and using it against your opponents as to create a scenario where they could not succeed, no matter what they do??

It's not about having access to information, its about how we use it to inform our actions and create a BETTER role-playing experience for everyone. Because, at the end of the day, we're ROLE-PLAYING, not trying to win a game of chess. We should all be enjoying what our opponents are trying to do to screw us over, and they should be enjoying what we're doing to thwart their actions against us. I infinitely prefer that everyone have read my post to Le-a regarding Sheikh Ragay, (and have her answer accordingly) and enjoy it rather than "succeed" in my mission action regarding the Sheikh's whereabouts and/or capture in its corresponding mission. If the purpose isn't meaningful role playing, we should all be playing another game (i.e. MMORPG) and not waste admin's time in trying to create a role-playing forum for us where we are allowed the opportunity to positively engage each with other (even when its adversarial).

My two-cents.
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  Ar'yayhivequeen on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:42 am

while it is appreciated when someone does do their best to create a fun role playing experience for all, really metagaming doesn't have to benefit the person doing it. Any and all changes to what you would or would not have done in reaction to other players posts is as you are all aware metagaming. However sometimes it is very difficult not to, and sometimes it may make things easier on players.
The assassination mission is a perfect example, the mission doesn't tell us where Su Maehl is, is he at his home, is he in an office building, a ship, a different dimension? No information is given, thus we have players implying location. Unity Prime's post has his character walking toward then into an office. This would imply a building of some sort most likely on a planet, a ship,(would have to be a large one to have office space) or a space station. Garmen Fe's post implies more of the office building or a space station as most likely your average employees wouldn't have a work station inside a ship. (the impression is given that they are posing as civilian employees not military units) Le-a's post implies some kind of office building or a office area in a space station as that is most likely what she assumed as well. Blackheart doesn't even bother to guess and simply gives several options depending on where Su Maehl is, I myself didn't specify but I was assuming some kind of office building or space station. I won't go into everyone but you get the idea, until Maehl posted about where he was no one really knew anything and we all had to guess or take ques from one another.
He decided to metagame a situation where the other players would be able to do something, this was consciously done by him so that the other players aren't just auto screwed. Lets face it, if he decided that his character was on the plane of awareness in the castle of Celyse several things would have happened. Number 1, it would have all but nullified the majority of posts previously done. Unity Prime's guy and Garmen Fe's people are in his offices and thus not actually at the battle, my guys would have been sneaking up on a man in a large audience chamber surrounded by Uthvalor warriors and in front of one of the most powerful game characters ever played. Needless to say my attempts would have been for naught. Le-a's mercenaries like the Unity players would have also done little to nothing as they like them wouldn't be in the right place.
Viggo and Ryuk would be alright since they just gave orders and didn't specify a location, considering no location was given in the mission briefing this was probably one of the best choices to make. Not as good on the role playing but better in the gaming sense.

So, to make a long story short (too late ha ha ha) metagaming is very hard not to do especially in situations where little to no information is given about a mission. One has to make up things and in the end you have no idea if what you are making up is even close to what is going on. Situations like this make metagaming more prevalent as usually when people are confused they try to find more information before making a decision thus making it more likely to look at other people's posts.
I will admit i looked at Garmen Fe's and Unity Prime's posts, I was trying to find something that described the location, they implied it was in some kind of office, so I created my action on that information. I did my best not to use their posts for anything more, thus I didn't really make any special defenses against them, i.e putting wards down and saturating the area with chill to counter the technomancy being tossed around.

In the future one way to cut down on this type of metagaming would be to perhaps have more information in the opening post by the Admin. If we know for example where we are we can plan according in our own posts instead of grasping for straws. Perhaps the vague nature of the mission was on purpose, but as I mentioned earlier if Su Maehl had chosen to be with Celyse in her castle on the plane of awareness several previous posts become meaningless.
This way we can encourage the role playing and not have the first posters picking the location simply because they have no idea where the mission is taking place.

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  FieldMarshallStrykker on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:40 am

@Maehl, I think no one took any defense into account for two reasons the first being that no one ever does. (1) Every week for missions people just show up in whatever system or planet for a mission and the idea of defense being in place is ignored because its just easier. For example when fighting the Forgotten on Draco Epislon 7 one faction (Unity) got codes to by pass the extensive defenses of that system from me before the fight started. No one else asked or even considered it as far as I know and even Prime didn't ask for codes I told him he was being sent one time pass codes. And really would it have made for much of a fight if everyone coming there in a space ship had to fight their into the system and maybe get driven off or destroyed before the mission could even happen?
(2) The free systems don't really have a standing army or defense anyway each planet sees to itself. (If thats changing in the game now I don't know but thats been the case in the past) and really the planet had orbital guns which people did account for in their posts. Thus my use of cloaked ships. If anything emplaced defenses played a larger part in that mission than they normally do.

As for Meta-gaming I don't think implying location in your posts is usually something I'd call meta-gaming. Since in the end where a mission really happens is up to Admin. Maehl could have posted about being safe and sound in Ceylse's castle but then admin may decide that the attack comes while he's on his way to the energy bridge. To me meta-gaming is using knowledge your character couldn't have. Like if I saw in the TRILAT forums they were planing to raid Draco and suddenly went to the EEF forums and started a thread about heading off the impending TRILAT attack. Or in a mission thread waiting for someone to post and planing to make sure your plan counters every aspect of their plan.

It's tricky to tell here as well. Something may look like meta-gaming when it isn't due to cross posts or when a post actually gets made. Like this week in the Alice Clegg mission I started to write my post and while I was writing it Garmin Fe made his post his plan was to vent the ship a compartment at a time. Meanwhile I made sure everyone I sent had darkside rings or was in Warg armor so they could survive vacuum. Now I did it because they were fighting on a half wrecked star ship and getting spaced seemed like it could happen. But just reading the thread you could easily think I did it on just because he said he'd be venting the ship.

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  MichaelHerbertGilmour on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:50 am

blackheartsecurity wrote:I dunno a lot of times you need to read everyones posts. For example in fight against the forgotten on krypos if you just read the missions you may just send in troops only to take massive casualties because they ran headlong into an EEF artillery barrage (Artillery barrages are something highly highly noticeable).

Just to speak to this: I actually think this is the kinda' metagaming I'd like to avoid. I'd think you should just discuss the plan in your forums before going out onto the field. If your characters didn't communicate beforehand, then you're gonna' get hit by friendly-fire. It happens a /ton/ IRL for exactly this reason.
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  blackheartsecurity on Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:54 am

Yes and no, In real life professional militaries are supposed to clear ground and air prior to releasing. Does fratricide still happen? Sure but it is very rare. So if nonprofessional armies (hastily conscripted militia for example) then sure it is completely feasible for them to blow each other up by accident (At the same time its just as feasible they would show proper fire discipline, just ask people who fought beside masoud the lion).

My point with the forgotten, since the artillery/airstrikes, were the first wave of the attack if I were the commander of troops getting ready to charge this thing, I would reconsider the minute the first bomb was released. Now as a player if you posted your people were charging into it (their original plan because they didn't know the other sides plans) I doubt admin would have the commander think twice and come up with something thats better adapted to conditions on the ground. So you kinda have to metagame, the question is what would the ground commander see coming versus what they wouldn't, and that is a gray area.


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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  MichaelHerbertGilmour on Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:05 am

While I hear what you're saying, this is also a situation where you have two entirely separate armies using completely separate command structures. Under those situations, confusion will occur.

Whether that results in the arty not going off due to friendlies on the ground or a bunch of allies getting blasted to pieces is another question entirely.
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  blackheartsecurity on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:14 pm

I am noting as long as the artillery strikes began before the ground attack no competent ground commander is going to rush into an arty killzone, so the player either leaves that up to admins decision as to which happened first and whether your commander was a person or a starcraft unit blindly following instructions or posts with the arty in mind.

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  TemporalEmpire on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:21 pm

FieldMarshallStrykker wrote:
(2) The free systems don't really have a standing army or defense (If thats changing in the game now I don't know but thats been the case in the past) and really the planet had orbital guns which people did account for in their posts. Thus my use of cloaked ships. If anything emplaced defenses played a larger part in that mission than they normally do.


There have been a lot of defenses and fleets built over Space 1 and Space 2. Without giving too much away, there is a lot more going on than I've let on (thanks admin for keeping it DL)

Back to the topic of this thread.
Everyone should first assume other players have incharacter info they don't before they yell Meta-gaming and point fingers.

With all due respect, I really do enjoy playing here with you creative people, but I think its the people who are quickest to yell metagaming who do it the most themselves.

Now back to doing laundry

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  TemporalEmpire on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:22 pm

blackheartsecurity wrote:I am noting as long as the artillery strikes began before the ground attack no competent ground commander is going to rush into an arty killzone, so the player either leaves that up to admins decision as to which happened first and whether your commander was a person or a starcraft unit blindly following instructions or posts with the arty in mind.

Why wouldn't you just contact your teammates before battle in character?

Then you'd know about artillery and could put your action down to account for it

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  blackheartsecurity on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:36 pm

LOL I'm saying cross commander. If both the IR and the K-fed are posting they may not think to cross talk, at the same time if an infantry unit crosses a ridge and sees steel rain on an area they are not very likely to continue on the plan of charge into that area, they would naturally look for a new plan. Unless you want admin to make up that plan, or not and take ridiculous casualties (As has happened a few times) you as a player need to articulate the tactical commanders new plan.

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  Palomedes on Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:05 pm

blackheartsecurity wrote:LOL I'm saying cross commander. If both the IR and the K-fed are posting they may not think to cross talk, at the same time if an infantry unit crosses a ridge and sees steel rain on an area they are not very likely to continue on the plan of charge into that area, they would naturally look for a new plan. Unless you want admin to make up that plan, or not and take ridiculous casualties (As has happened a few times) you as a player need to articulate the tactical commanders new plan.

It really would depend on your army wouldn't it? I can see Nightmares and Undead charging in without caring. And I see any Brethren following my buddy Deer being shot if they didn't charge in, steel rain or hell itself.
But Mercs, EEF soldiers I doubt would follow such a stupid command. the EEF and VLAD don't even listen to real command in the live convention games I've witnessed so I guess we are lucky they do actually follow orders here

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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  ViggoTheKasanthian on Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:26 am

[quote="FieldMarshallStrykker"] (1) Every week for missions people just show up in whatever system or planet for a mission and the idea of defense being in place is ignored because its just easier.

I'd like to think that some thought is going into defense, especially when you're specifying to provide cover for another character's actions. In the last week's Alice Clegg mission, that was my only real purpose for posting up. Ryuk had tried to help me out with a mission and thus i was attempting to do the same. Now, lets face it her: my army is not going to be the strongest force on the battle field. i looked to use their weakness as an advantage, and even that i was unable to get away with. I went into the mission basically using only the mission post information. It stated that Ryuk was trying to achieve something so i was going to try to aid him to succeed without getting hurt- really nothing more. Definitely nothing in it for me.

Maybe is should just be posting up in the it's not fair... I have tried putting in at least one accurate true-to-character post in for each weeks missions. The outcome has either been actions null and void coming out looking like a coward, or just a straight up failure. It's not looking like a very good track record. Now maybe i should look to converse with my alliance a tad bit more, but being told what your character is just going to do is totally not the way of a Kasanthian. I suppose this is a rant that could go on for quite sometime, but I'm fairly tired and my character is totally out of the loop at this point.
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  AdmiralLayneYr on Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:37 am

2 things Viggo

1 this post should be in the its not fair section not about Meta Gaming.

2 respect, but you aren't part of planning threads. You never open mission threads. Any time you communicate its through PM not through actual forum discussion.
Your actions are often at odds with the team plan because you don't communicate to your team mates. I'm actually happy the Admin limits your "influence" on missions because (except for CB Beta 4) you don't make in character actions. You just send in random troops. I'm not being mean, just saying what I see as your faction leader.

You should spend more time role playing in the TRILAT forum and more time adding threads to the Nykosa V planet threads. Then when a mission comes up you have an entire week to say "I want to do this." Then we all at least get a chance to jump in and say We want to help Teammate or say why are doing that.

You have missed so many roleplaying moments. How great would that conversing between all three if us Before the mission post in character about why or why not to help Su Maehl. Instead you just decided you would HELP our enemies the Hive. No cool.

Unless you want your character in the book to be the Kiou who does nothing except confuse his teammates.

Harsh maybe but its so you can grow as a character.


Also as a note to your first point All players should be sending Admin their defenses. All us guys and gals from space 2 submitted our defenses a long time ago. You just don't know of them until you trip them.

Viggo can I ask you what you are trying to accomplish for your character?

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Viggo's accomplishments

Post  ViggoTheKasanthian on Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:02 pm

Well i don't fully know anymore. To be fair now, the two point you made are reiterations of things i had said. Yes it would be great to have in character discussions, but i don't always have the time to be around, and that's sincerely the purpose for sending out the private messages. It insures that i can start an in character discussion and hopefully get an answer; regardless i have already done as you had asked.
I have been interested in the game for some time, and done my reading on the different character types and the leyas stuff. I had wanted to try something different playing as a Kasathian. I added being a K'iou to actual throw in something else different that i could somewhat draw upon for role playing aspects. I thought that K'iou are a brave and noble race, so i wanted to try is as less than noble and fallen from those graces. So i am all good in what i had set out to do, just that by doing so i'm very much not a part of what's going on in the game, and as i stated before out of the loop.
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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

Post  Palomedes on Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:02 pm

Mr. Viggo

May I throw my two cents in.

You claim that you feel your character is being misrespresented as cowardly.

In reading your submissions it seemed like you were trying to play a craven, petty and malicious Kiou. Before you get upset, it would make sense for a Kasanthian to be that way.

I wouldn't say cowardly because you charged a nuke tank. Not smart but also not cowardly.


Since you write your character as a not very likeable person (drooling and mean) that may be why you feel you aren't getting a chance to roleplay. Maybe you should focus on befriending a member of your team. That is how Deer and I started working together during space 2. He was completely unlikable (sorry Lenny you know its true) so I started being his diplomat and we built on that relationship.



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Re: Discussion: Meta-gaming

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