NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

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If Stilleto Starfighters use their special ability to increase their Move to 100 should they also be unable to dodge mines

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NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  Admin on Sat May 05, 2012 1:35 am

The Following Question has been posed by a player.

Admin, can we make a rule stillettos can't dodge mines when at full speed?

I would actually love to hear peoples opinion about this.


If Stilleto Starfighters use their special ability to increase their Move to 100 should they also be unable to dodge mines?

There are good arguments on both sides of the question and I'd love to hear them. alien

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  OrleosSacrenine on Sat May 05, 2012 2:35 am

My argument would be to 'Nerf' them in the case of being able to dodge at such high speeds. I argue this because of the point of it being physically harder to dodge and see things when moving at a fast pace, due to less reaction time and images blurring due to the intense speeds.

Unless they have the technology to analyze incoming images to dodge these things, in which case I would just say for someone, or a lot of someones, to develop the 'Improved Space Mine', which can't be detected by natural means to cancel that out.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  Lief_of_FortLendill on Sun May 13, 2012 2:39 pm

Is it really a "Nerf"? Beyond maybe one instance in which Admiral Nikki used teddy bear bombs how much mine warfare have we really seen? I am not tracking any mine warfare ships besides the pirate light. I say let it be their Achilles heel.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  MaehlHoldings on Sun May 13, 2012 5:36 pm

Stilettos strength is speed and maneuverability. Their weakness is that they're easy to blow out of the sky (weak armor and very defined weakness). They are a prototypical high yield, high risk ship.

Why nerf a ship that's inherently nerfed?

I'm not an expert in physics, but if you have a no friction environment, as you do in space, then you should have virtually unlimited maneuverability provided a good pilot and ample opportunity. Th espeed of the ship should only matter in relation to the size of the object in motion relative to the size of the object it is trying to avoid vs "line of sight"/detection. Since stilettos are intended to be highly maneuverable, their speed shouldn't affect their dodge, provided the, re is opportunity to dodge. Example: a 1 cube foot mine. How close does a ship need to detect it? Does the relative closeness adversely affect a more maneuverable craft from getting out of the way of the 1 cubic foot item with less time? What about a 3month cubic ft? I'm unconvinced that it would.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  directorironsbane on Mon May 14, 2012 3:54 am

Well there is also reaction time to consider. If you are going normal speed and your computer system picks up a mine you have X amount of time to move out of the way, if you are going twice that speed you have half the amount of time to move out of the way. So in theory, yes the faster you go the harder it would be to dodge out of the way of the object.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  Lief_of_FortLendill on Mon May 14, 2012 2:43 pm

MaehlHoldings wrote:Stilettos strength is speed and maneuverability. Their weakness is that they're easy to blow out of the sky (weak armor and very defined weakness). They are a prototypical high yield, high risk ship.

Why nerf a ship that's inherently nerfed?

I'm not an expert in physics, but if you have a no friction environment, as you do in space, then you should have virtually unlimited maneuverability provided a good pilot and ample opportunity. Th espeed of the ship should only matter in relation to the size of the object in motion relative to the size of the object it is trying to avoid vs "line of sight"/detection. Since stilettos are intended to be highly maneuverable, their speed shouldn't affect their dodge, provided the, re is opportunity to dodge. Example: a 1 cube foot mine. How close does a ship need to detect it? Does the relative closeness adversely affect a more maneuverable craft from getting out of the way of the 1 cubic foot item with less time? What about a 3month cubic ft? I'm unconvinced that it would.

They are low risk high yield, there has yet to be an ineffective stilletto rush. Plus they are the cheapest fighter in the game, why not make it you get what you pay for?

Ok onto your talk of physics. I really don't want to go in depth on this one, however I think there are some errors worthy of note.

Inertia not friction is why stillettos shouldn't be able to dodge a mine. The stilletto going forward doesn't want to change Direction. Same reason you can't really steer a drag racer.

Next that +10 bonus to dodge means you are flying twice as fast as a gunner in an antifighter turret can track, at that speed how much time to react does a pilot have.

Also in a hard turn the ships stated weak point would be the fulcrum, whats to stop the ship from snapping in half if you bank too hard?

No onto mine warfare. Space mines would be ineffective if you had to run over them like an antitank mine. Instead they would probably work like depth charges or by proximity detonation (like most surface to air missiles do).

Point with that is in a frictionless environment your kill radius is measured by how far it disperses to be ineffective, not how quick gravity and friction can slow it down. So yes dodging a 1cu ft mine sounds easy but dodging a 500m radius fragmentaion cloud suddenly sounds like a daunting task for a fighter that is trying to fly at it full force.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  blackheartsecurity on Wed May 16, 2012 4:30 am

Physics should never have entered the conversation as it supports neither Maehl's point, nor Liefs. The DR world is one in which a self cocking nerf gun can penetrate ballistic armor more advanced than anything we have today, once I am shown the physics of that we can start talking explosive speed versus pilot reaction time.

Going with the numbers and assuming equal skill between gunner and emplacer (As an munchkin is ought to do) as is mining can be an effective method to deter the stilletto rush.

Assuming equal skill there is a 50% chance for a single mine to hit a stilletto (This would be game over for the balsa wood stilletto fighter). However assuming the mine is area effect (+8 dodge TN) it would mean the stilletto has a 70% chance of dodging. While that favors the stilletto it isn't as effective as its 90% normal evasion rate (Nothing has higher than a 90% evasion rate in DR unless the text specifically says auto dodge) and not as bad as any other fighters 20% chance to dodge.

If the mine were city effect (+15 dodge TN) then the stilletto pilot has a 10% survival rate (Everyone has a 1 in 10 chance of surviving anything).

Instead of specifically targeting the stilletto for destruction you could make the optional rule that mine fields gain the "city effect" modifier so that they are effective against all sorts of fighters (If one made void mines this would be a horrific cap-killa).

Or the argument could be made since everyone is using the stilletto rush so heavily that persuading them to do cool shit instead of the same one hit wonder makes for greater fun.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  EEFColonyGeneralMalthus on Fri May 18, 2012 2:32 am

blackheartsecurity wrote:The DR world is one in which a self cocking nerf gun can penetrate ballistic armor more advanced than anything we have today, once I am shown the physics of that we can start talking explosive speed versus...

If you are talking about a standard springshot then it actually won't pierce EEF or IR armor (Cept on a Natural 10)

If your talking about an autospring then its like comparing a modern high end hunting crossbow with a nerf gun.
Aside ended. Please continue your arguments both for and against Stilettos rushes vs mines.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  blackheartsecurity on Fri May 18, 2012 2:53 am

Colony general, I haven't seen many high end crossbows that go semi auto Evil or Very Mad

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  FieldMarshallStrykker on Fri May 18, 2012 3:13 am

The Chinese had one like 2000 years ago. So its kinda possible. Regardless I don't think that a Stiletto specific rule is really fair. It would hardly be fair if an EEF and a Free Systems force faced mine and I could deploy Gunpods that would no penalty while Stilettos would be at extra risk (which they arguably already are since they don't have much armor). Personally I think considering mine type weapons as city effect (at least) makes the most sense.
I mean the ranges involved in deep space combat would probably be pretty insane anyway and really what is a mine in space going to be anyway. A small nuke? A single use x-ray laser? Dodging for any fighter or ship would be damn near impossible anyway.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  EEFColonyGeneralMalthus on Fri May 18, 2012 3:33 am

blackheartsecurity wrote:Colony general, I haven't seen many high end crossbows that go semi auto Evil or Very Mad

I agree whole heartedly. No automatic crossbows are a real lack in our modern society. Twisted Evil

The speed of the semi auto Autospring
Burst fire of the Autospring saw
And cone of the autospring trenchgun etc are the "futuristic" elements

I was addressing the "lack of penetration" concern.

The penetration though would be significant. And more than capable of taking down a deer or a guy in a basic armored spacesuit. it ll bounce clear off power armor though.


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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  directorironsbane on Fri May 18, 2012 4:07 am

FieldMarshallStrykker wrote:The Chinese had one like 2000 years ago. So its kinda possible. Regardless I don't think that a Stiletto specific rule is really fair. It would hardly be fair if an EEF and a Free Systems force faced mine and I could deploy Gunpods that would no penalty while Stilettos would be at extra risk (which they arguably already are since they don't have much armor). Personally I think considering mine type weapons as city effect (at least) makes the most sense.
I mean the ranges involved in deep space combat would probably be pretty insane anyway and really what is a mine in space going to be anyway. A small nuke? A single use x-ray laser? Dodging for any fighter or ship would be damn near impossible anyway.

Well from the impression that I have gotten (please correct me if i am understanding it wrong) that the nerf wouldn't be generically to Stilettos normally, but when they use their speed boost. At normal speed then nothing would change, it would be the same as it would be for any fighter, but when they speed up and get their extra bonuses then that is when the mine nerf would occur.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  OrleosSacrenine on Fri May 18, 2012 5:08 am

directorironsbane wrote:
FieldMarshallStrykker wrote:The Chinese had one like 2000 years ago. So its kinda possible. Regardless I don't think that a Stiletto specific rule is really fair. It would hardly be fair if an EEF and a Free Systems force faced mine and I could deploy Gunpods that would no penalty while Stilettos would be at extra risk (which they arguably already are since they don't have much armor). Personally I think considering mine type weapons as city effect (at least) makes the most sense.
I mean the ranges involved in deep space combat would probably be pretty insane anyway and really what is a mine in space going to be anyway. A small nuke? A single use x-ray laser? Dodging for any fighter or ship would be damn near impossible anyway.

Well from the impression that I have gotten (please correct me if i am understanding it wrong) that the nerf wouldn't be generically to Stilettos normally, but when they use their speed boost. At normal speed then nothing would change, it would be the same as it would be for any fighter, but when they speed up and get their extra bonuses then that is when the mine nerf would occur.

More or less.

They wouldn't have such an easy time due to the increased speeds vs the space mines, but that's about all that would change.

Any other time, they're just they normal Stilettoey self.

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I didn't know DR cared rigidly about character placement, I am gonna bust out my D&D figurines

Post  Lief_of_FortLendill on Fri May 18, 2012 6:03 am

Truth be told the stilletto rush should never have worked to begin with in the game where movement rates don't matter. The mine rule allows for this tactic to have a counter even though it is aberrant to the intent of the game.

Think about it. Ok the stilletto approaches high speed (1turn), brakes and fires (1turn), and then retreats (1turn). 2 of those turns its a 1 in 10 target, the other turn its just like any other fighter.

Now lets say I wanted to do a "gunpod rush" Shoot and move (1turn), shoot and move (1turn), shoot and move (1turn). Sure its vulnerable just like the stilletto in its fire phase the whole time BUT from the onset of combat its shooting, it doesn't spend a turn getting blow'd up before it starts to shoot.

Its only when we act like things can move "out of range" that the stilletto rush is a viable tactic. If that is the case I need to know the max range of all my weapons systems

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  FieldMarshallStrykker on Fri May 18, 2012 1:18 pm

But they don't stop to fire. At least to my understanding they come in at full speed attack while on the move and don't brake or turn until they've passed the target. Granted this brings into question the apparent accuracy of stiletto rushes in the past.

What seems off to me is why only they can do it. Other fighters that are just as fast. Why not a gunpod or variable fighter rush? I think rather than totally nerf the stiletto let all fighters (with a high enough move) have a rush attack but apply a dodge penalty while they are doing it.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  directorironsbane on Fri May 18, 2012 2:53 pm

i figured that the rush was an engine boost type maneuver. It is going at a certain speed and then suddenly it gets a burst of extra speed that prevents gunners from accurately getting a target lock on it.

Of course yes that does bring the question of how accurate is the gunner at that time. One could dismiss this and say it is part of the Stiletto training to compensate for this maneuver.

I am going with the theory of the faster you go the less time you have to react to threats that suddenly appear, since physics aren't my strong suit I cannot argue from that perspective.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  Lief_of_FortLendill on Mon May 21, 2012 9:33 pm

In the stats block for the stiletto it explains to get the dodge bonus the fighter needs to forsake all attacks. That being said a gunpod rush should be three times as effective (As they start shooting from the outset).

The stiletto rush is a complete creature of the forums, any player trying to make it happen in a regular game will find themselves facing a greater chance of failure (Though in the actual game the "raptor rush" would prove to be effective)

Since the stilletto rushes success exists on the forums only and breaks the rules presented I say nerf the hell out of it. In terms of actual game play I doubt the nerf will come into play unless it is the central tactic of the battle, and in actual game the easy counter for it would be to fly normal speed (The speed you can shoot back).

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  MaehlHoldings on Wed May 23, 2012 2:18 am

Let's talk this out in game play terms:
Stilettos rush a frigate.
they go first because they're faster. They bomb the hell out of the frigate (turn 1). As they've engaged, anything that didn't get destroyed attacks, and pretty much take out anything they hit (no dodge bonus, standard dog fight where stilletos get no bonus). Turn 2. Stilletos bounce because they will get obliterated in a dog fight.

If the stilleto doesn't make it out, its a goner.
So other than turn 1 Superiority, it's got nothing else going for it. Raptors, gunpods, hornets, anything beat it. That isn't enough of a weakness that it needs to be nerfed more?

Let's also remeber where stilletos fit in a pirate fleet: stilletos rush, machetes and cudgels dogs fight, and their "big" ship is a light frigate. These ships all serve very specific purposes and are not good at doing many things. You can't defend a planet with those ships. (At least not easily). Every faction has ships that can serve offense and defense

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  MaehlHoldings on Wed May 23, 2012 2:34 am

(Continued from above)
Pirates/Free Systems don't. They developed ships to perform their needs and run. It's their only advantage. And recently the only reason they've been successful, leif, is there's generally something going on as well. It's not just the stilletos. So quit hating Wink.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  FieldMarshallStrykker on Wed May 23, 2012 3:34 am

Yeah we're talking about nerfing a one trick pony here.
Thought I notice we seem to have drifted a bit from dodging mines to fights against ships and other fighters. Which is kind of a different question.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  Lief_of_FortLendill on Wed May 23, 2012 4:37 am

Maehl, show me one place in the stat block that says stillettos get an initiative bonus. Initiative is based on the agi/FS of the PILOT, not the ship.

The stillettos bonus is it can turn tail and run, not that unlike every other ship in the game it gets an initiative bonus, or can disregard its own special ability description.

The player following your advice would find themselves deep in the suck when they roll initiative and realize a super heavy ship is just as likely to go first.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  OrleosSacrenine on Wed May 23, 2012 4:46 am

We're going to talk ourselves in circles if we keep on this ship vs ship mindset of thinking, and I have to agree with FMS, we are getting a bit off subject.

From what I've read, I can understand a bit more as per the specs of the ships, and especially if the initiative is against the Stiletto's, seeing as they're light weights as far as ships go and will get blown out of the sky.

But like what was said earlier, this is about Mines, not Ship vs Ship.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  Lief_of_FortLendill on Wed May 23, 2012 6:23 am

Indeed we are but it dove tails quite nicely, and is probably at the crux of the discussion. The stilletto is NOT a space superiority fighter, it isn't a cheaper raptor or gunpod. Its purpose was intended entirely different than to be a front line fighter.

Maehl's description of repeated pirate cavalry charges sounds completely unlike Ironsbane (the creator) who used nothing but diversions, feints etc, till his blaze of glory.

Instead in this pirate fleet the stilletto acts as one thing, a diversion. It strikes from some sort of ambush position (IE asteroid field, nebula, atmosphere, etc) then hits the after burner (could technically be a before initiative shield raising) pulling the pursuit away from the unarmed freighters (Which then get pillaged) or leads them into a trap (Notice the pirate light is a mine layer, what better way to lead an enemy into a minefield than with fighters that get a ridiculous dodge bonus if they do nothing but?)

So really nerfing the "stilletto rush" by making it mine vulnerable isn't detracting from the stilletto fighters original purpose at all, it just provides one way that the forum can seek to return at least roughly to the physics of the rulebooks. Its worth noting the first stilletto rush was against lightly armed freighters, it also wasn't a stilletto rush, the stillettos were cover for a Recycler of doom.

I say nerf the maneuver that never was. In the pen and paper game the easy way to avoid being pummeled by mines is to not hit the after burners, which is what most players do anyway because just being shot at isn't fun.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  MaehlHoldings on Wed May 23, 2012 11:28 am

I brought up ship versus ship because the purpose anyone wants to nerf the stilto is because of it's supposed destructive capabilities.

So, am I understanding that everyone agrees that the stilleto is a one trick pony whose only advantage at all is it's speed, not in combat, but outside it? And that the only reason it's unfair and need s to be nerfed is that other players and/or factions should be able to have a special attack for which only stilletos have a disadvantage against, taking away their only benefit in use?

I don't get it.

Also, as a side note, the lore doesn't quote Ironsbane as having developed the stilleto just space pirates. Admin can weigh in on that one though.

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

Post  MaehlHoldings on Wed May 23, 2012 11:39 am

I was going to leave my comments as they were, but as I reread comments on this thread, I feel as if at least some of the tone of the comments listed seem personal. I'm going to call a spade a spade: I'm defending my factions ships here. As of now, I'm the player who would be most affected by any change of interpretation of the rules as I have hundreds of thousands of stilletos in my fleet.

Also, other than admin, I am the one who has most liberally used the stilleto in this campaign. So i'll ask, as the comment was mentioned, inI what ways have my capabilities with a stilleto been overblown on the forums , and in turn by admin, to even warrant this conversation? What strategic wrong is being righted here that a free systems ship warrants nerving, as opposed to all other ships in the game?

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Re: NERF the Stiletto Rush when Faced with Mines?

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